Comments for A Happy Ending

Comment on blessed be your name by lietofine

lietofine — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 04:31:56 +0000

Hi Robin, Thanks for your perspective. I find that much of Judaism and Christianity have similar views on God, but having been raised in the evangelical camp I think they take it overboard a little bit. Lately I’ve seen a bunch of instances of people believing God will answer their prayer for a new car or “God provided the perfect house” or just an attitude that God will take care of all my problems as long as I trust Him. And I just start having a problem with that perspective. There’s too much suffering and pain and problems in the world.

I can accept that God chooses not to get involved at times, but I guess I have trouble accepting that “God provided the perfect car for me”, but God choose not to heal someone’s sickness or remove a child from an abusive situation. Maybe it’s true and it’s just a tension to learn to live with, but for now I think maybe God’s really a bit more distant than helping you pick out your car. Or maybe the whole idea that God provided “clear direction” for each and every decision you make is just a little co-dependent anyway.

It’s definitely a comfort to believe that God is close by, but trying to give up the codependent ideas are tough when you’ve been raised with them.

Comment on blessed be your name by Robin (noteverstill)

Robin (noteverstill) — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:04:15 +0000

In Judaism we learn that God is like a benevolent parent – always caring, always interested, always concerned – but NOT always going to get involved. Just as you watch your son learn to walk and don’t go catch him every time he stumbles, God knows we are sometimes hurt, sometimes by our own doing and sometimes at the hands of others and sometimes by unfulfilled desires, but God doesn’t always step in. Your son will trip, he’ll bump his head. Your kid will want candy at bedtime and you’ll say no. Your kids will grow and have their hearts broken and you can’t always mend them, even though as the mommy you really want to. So it is with God. Does that perspective bring any comfort at all?

Comment on Of my two boys by lietofine

lietofine — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:30:13 +0000

Hi Cindy, I’m so glad you’re still around. It’s been so long since I’ve been posting.

I think things have been rough lately because my youngest just started getting around. Needs more supervision/interaction now and is more aware of what’s going on now (wants to be involved in everything now). The 3 year old is having a hard time with it and it’s a good adjustment for him to make, but it’ll take a while I think. It’s just tough for me when we’re generally having a good day and things just blindside me (having fun all day and then the younger one is trying to bite me so I’m dealing with it and the older one decide he’ll bite me too!). Things that are just ARGH, I shouldn’t have to deal with this! moments.

Thanks so much for the encouragement. I really appreciate it. I’m looking forward to when the adjustments are made a bit better and we can have fun times without the tantrums or unruliness. :]

Comment on Of my two boys by cindyinsd

cindyinsd — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 19:29:04 +0000

My heart goes out to you–I know how hard this is, though it was so long ago that I went through it. Stop beating yourself up. All children are at the beginning of a difficult journey, that being to learn the art of unselfishness. Not their fault; talk to Adam about that; but they still need to learn it, just as all the rest of us do.

So long as you do give your children the affection and love they need (and I feel sure you do), it is actually good for them to sometimes have to wait to receive some of their needs. Children who are held back from learning the unwelcome truth that they are not the center of the universe suffer greatly for it later.

You’re doing fine.

Blessings, Cindy

Comment on The purpose of church and the question of music by lietofine

lietofine — Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:59:33 +0000

Hi Cindy, Sorry I’m rather slow…new baby and lack of sleep has left me a bit behind on things. I totally agree with you. Church should be community – even the word itself says that. I guess something I’ve been thinking about as I process this is: when “going to church” isn’t community is it ok to “go to church” just for the music? Is it ok to pick someplace to GO just because you like the music and it makes you feel spiritual and/or close to God? Same thing with like a Christian music concert. I stepped so far back from Christian music for a while because I couldn’t be sure that the song had a right doctrine or that maybe the feeling I got wasn’t a good reason to listen or be around that. But now that I’ve been stepped away from it for quite a while and I listened for a little bit a few weeks ago, maybe the good feeling I get is ok and even God-given. Maybe it’s not community and maybe it’s not “sound doctrine” in a knowledge sort of way, but maybe it’s still somehow an appropriate spiritual experience.
Thanks for the link – I’ll check it out sometime, but with the new baby it may be a while before I get to it.

Comment on The purpose of church and the question of music by Mel

Mel — Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:09:55 +0000

Man, do your folks ever sound like mine!

Congratulations by the way!!!

Comment on The purpose of church and the question of music by cindyinsd

cindyinsd — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:39:17 +0000

Hey, LTF

Actually, I’d have to say that I believe that the community is the most important and that the community depends on many things, one of which, certainly, is sound doctrine. I believe, though, that this sound doctrine comes from searching the scriptures and listening to the Spirit together and individually and each member sharing with the others–not from one guy standing “up there” giving a speech.

As for music, perhaps this is your particular gift (or more likely, one of them). Does God give you songs? I never had God give me a song before, but I have gotten at least half a dozen from Him in the past couple of months. It’s really amazing. Maybe they’re only between me and Him, but when I sing them, I enter into the most profound sense of worship. And this is me, sitting in my chair all by myself with no guitar or anything. I could write the songs by myself and they would be nice songs, but they don’t have anything like the same power. So I wait. You get way better stuff that way.

The thing about the preaching being the most important part of the “service” started in the Reformation. Before that, it was Eucharist, or Holy Communion. So it’s not a real new thing. I don’t think the music has ever been the most emphasized part of worship (except in some churches in more modern times).

Maybe what’s really the most important is whatever God is telling us to do next. What if every person in the church came with a heart full of God to share with her brothers and sisters? What if people prayed or spoke or prophesied or sang as the Spirit prompted them? It would be awkward until they learned to flow together, but would it not be a wonderful thing? Maybe worth praying about, seeking God to bring it into being? If this longing for community is in your heart, then maybe God put it there. Maybe He wants to work it out through you as you wait on His direction.

Lk10.com is a nice place to go for some fellowship and information. Consider yourself invited, and don’t worry about the church planting thing. Their idea of “planting a church” is having (or wanting to have) two or more people gathered together in His name. So “church” could be having coffee with a Christian friend or a seeker and praying or sharing together.

There are other sites you can go to, and they’re interesting, but this is a safe place. If you’re serious about wanting Christian community, check it out, and drop me a note there when you do.

God bless,

Cindy

Comment on The purpose of church and the question of music by lietofine

lietofine — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:34:44 +0000

I’ve seen most of the dB information before. Not sure what my preferred dB music level is. My parents were somewhat fanatical about us kids not using headphones because of the potential for hearing damage. Maybe these people should rephrase the guidelines in terms of screaming toddlers! :]
I think probably it’s not so much the dB level of music, but the acoustics of the place in question. I don’t know the average dB level of going to the Symphony, but that sort of sound and feeling can be just as majestic and sacred as rock-worship music in church. It is bothersome to me that many churches believe the music itself is so unimportant that it doesn’t matter about the atmosphere, volume, group dynamic, etc…and see people as almost heretical for having a passion about good music (you should be able to transcend the style, sound, etc in order to worship you know!) because the most important thing is the preaching anyway! I’ve been to churches that were loud, or just bad or even where you couldn’t make out the words because the acoustics were so bad and while especially the “modern” folks think preaching is most important, I’m coming to see that maybe it’s ok to acknowledge that God made me in a way to like music and to feel close to God and/or spiritual through music. While the “feeling” itself may not be most important, there’s no reason I need to deny that either in order to try and transcend my “fleshly” desires for a good experience.

Comment on The purpose of church and the question of music by EricW

EricW — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:56:48 +0000

FWIW, since I raised the issue:

Noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) – this is hearing loss due to exposure to either a sudden, loud noise or exposure to loud noises for a period of time. A dangerous sound is anything that is 85 dB (sound pressure level – SPL) or higher.

* A typical conversation occurs at 60 dB – not loud enough to cause damage.
* A bulldozer that is idling (note that this is idling, not actively bulldozing) is loud enough at 85 dB that it can cause permanent damage after only 1 work day (8 hours).
* When listening to music on earphones at a standard volume level 5, the sound generated reaches a level of 100 dB, loud enough to cause permanent damage after just 15 minutes per day!
* A clap of thunder from a nearby storm (120 dB) or a gunshot (140-190 dB, depending on weapon), can both cause immediate damage.

Decibel Exposure Time Guidelines

Accepted standards for recommended permissible exposure time for continuous time weighted average noise, according to NIOSH and CDC, 2002. For every 3 dBs over 85dB, the permissible exposure time before possible damage can occur is cut in half.

Continuous dB Permissible Exposure Time
85 db 8 hours
88 dB 4 hours
91 db 2 hours
94 db 1 hour
97 db 30 minutes
100 db 15 minutes
103 db 7.5 minutes
106 dB 3.75 min (< 4min)
109 dB 1.875 min (< 2min)
112 dB .9375 min (~1 min)
115 dB .46875 min (~30 sec)

Comment on The purpose of church and the question of music by lietofine

lietofine — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:22:25 +0000

Yes, I can understand. I’m not saying it has to be “oh my gosh” loud, but the quiet “we can still have a conversation” level makes me sort-of sad in that I see that usually meaning that no one (ok, maybe 2 people) is actually singing anyway and you can tell because the music isn’t loud enough to cover that up. Like I said, bad is still bad even if it’s loud. But good doesn’t have to be so loud that it hurts your ears.
Your last paragraph is part of my musing too… I hate that churches imply “worship time” (songs) is the only time you’re worshipping. I think it is in the way we live our lives and sometimes that does translate into songs as well. I guess the problem for me is that when I look at the purpose of church most people say either 1) sound doctrine/evanglism type stuff or 2) community. But when you’ve had the sound doctrine style drilled into you for so long and you still feel empty, that doesn’t hold up as a good purpose (like you’ve said, not that it’s not important, but it shouldn’t be primary). And then there’s me with community. It just doesn’t work right now. Maybe it will one day and maybe it never will. But since it’s not happening in a church setting, then that’s not a reason for me to go to church.
I think I like one of the things that N.T. Wright has to say about the Christian life… If I’m remembering right, the three signposts that give us indications and expressions of God are: 1) something about knowledge (like sound doctrine stuff), 2) beauty (music, art, poetry, etc.) and 3) justice. Most churches seem to put all three into definite boxes of what’s ok and what’s important instead of truly letting people express who they are as people made in the image of God. The church would be so much richer to have each person’s expressions of these things instead of trying to keep it all in the boxes (knowledge can be transferred from pastor to parishoner, music can be this style, dance is wrong, justice as long as you keep your hands clean).
For me, I think one my main expressions of spirituality is music (which I’ve been denying myself since I stopped going to church) and I’m starting to think that maybe the “feeling good” is worship in the sense that it allows me to express some part of my Imago Dei that I can’t express any other way. While you ask “is it love” for it to be louder than someone else likes or a different style than someone else likes – I think that’s the same sort of stifling of expression that my parents used to give for why people shouldn’t clap in church and they shouldn’t raise their hands in church and they shouldn’t dance in church – it might “disturb” someone else’s worship. I’m still trying to get over that feeling of what’s ok for worship and is it worship if it bothers someone else.
Like I said, it’s a tough one. I’m not only a rock-concert style person and I’ll admit that when I go to actual concerts I do wear ear plugs – so I’m truly not trying to say “that loud” is what it should be. But there’s something to be said for music that surrounds you and the general majesty and sacred feeling you can get from that (including like I said before, choirs and cathedrals and just people truly being one in song) instead of the music in the front with one or two people singing in the “audience” (oh yeah, and sometimes you get a few more clapping somewhat unenthusiastically on an upbeat sort of song)…the sacredness just isn’t there and there’s just that overwhelming feeling that it really doesn’t mean anything to the people in the church.